Comments on: More on the journey metaphor http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/ "To become aware of the possibility of the search is to be onto something. Not to be onto something is to be in despair." - Walker Percy, The Moviegoer Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:17:17 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Andy http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-4000 Andy Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:40:21 +0000 http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-4000 I absolutely agree. I just think we should give equal time to all three realities: the Christian, the church, and the Christian-in-communion. Scripture has plenty of time for each, I think. And this diversity of categories helps hold all of them together and underscore the fact that if you don't have all three, you don't have any of them. While fresh theologizing and even polemicizing is necessary as we respond to the peculiarities of our time (i.e., the lonely individualistic times we live in), I just don't want to be overly reactionary to the point of reductionism. The Emergent Church and the NT Wright movement, it seems to me, both have great critiques of the "individual comes first and then maybe later we'll talk about the church". But I don't think it's wise to go the other way round completely and say "the only dynamic religious identity the bible contenances is a communal one". We need to think of these three relations---individual/God; church/God; communning individuals/God---in the way that we think of the Trinity. By the way, I'm finally getting round to the lectures and interviews of NT Wright in the latter half of the MP3 CD you gave me. Very juicy; very provocative. I absolutely agree. I just think we should give equal time to all three realities: the Christian, the church, and the Christian-in-communion. Scripture has plenty of time for each, I think. And this diversity of categories helps hold all of them together and underscore the fact that if you don’t have all three, you don’t have any of them. While fresh theologizing and even polemicizing is necessary as we respond to the peculiarities of our time (i.e., the lonely individualistic times we live in), I just don’t want to be overly reactionary to the point of reductionism. The Emergent Church and the NT Wright movement, it seems to me, both have great critiques of the “individual comes first and then maybe later we’ll talk about the church”. But I don’t think it’s wise to go the other way round completely and say “the only dynamic religious identity the bible contenances is a communal one”. We need to think of these three relations—individual/God; church/God; communning individuals/God—in the way that we think of the Trinity.

By the way, I’m finally getting round to the lectures and interviews of NT Wright in the latter half of the MP3 CD you gave me. Very juicy; very provocative.

]]> By: Rob http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3998 Rob Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:53:55 +0000 http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3998 I explained myself poorly, but my point here was not to say that we should never talk about Christians as individuals. The thing I'm trying to get across is that within this lonely late capitalist society, we have a tendency to eliminate the communal and privatize as much as possible, including spirituality. The metaphors of scripture sound foreign and odd to ears that have been raised by television advertisements and individual personality tests. But those metaphors under gird a theology of community that can't be lost--in fact, that theology just might crack through some of the evils of this present age. A lonely people won't be made whole by a lonely theology. I explained myself poorly, but my point here was not to say that we should never talk about Christians as individuals. The thing I’m trying to get across is that within this lonely late capitalist society, we have a tendency to eliminate the communal and privatize as much as possible, including spirituality. The metaphors of scripture sound foreign and odd to ears that have been raised by television advertisements and individual personality tests. But those metaphors under gird a theology of community that can’t be lost–in fact, that theology just might crack through some of the evils of this present age.

A lonely people won’t be made whole by a lonely theology.

]]> By: Andy http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3997 Andy Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:02:46 +0000 http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3997 Forgive the sloppiness of that comment, along with its "more polemical than thou" tone. It came as my one and only independent thought sandwiched between grading 90 HIST 102 exams and a 3am retirement to bed. Forgive the sloppiness of that comment, along with its “more polemical than thou” tone. It came as my one and only independent thought sandwiched between grading 90 HIST 102 exams and a 3am retirement to bed.

]]> By: Andy http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3995 Andy Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:24:22 +0000 http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3995 You know, I have to say that I'm pretty tired of hearing about this GREAT either/or of communal/individual salvation, spiritual journey, conversion, relationship with God, union with Christ, etc. I'm all into the speech about community. But I'm alone a lot of the time. Lots of my day is spent in my own little world. And even when people are working around lots of other people, in our late capitalist society, they may be even more alone in such settings than I am when I'm holed up in my study all day. It's actually quite comforting to me to know that Jesus loves ME. Sure he loves his bride, and I'm not his bride, exactly. But I'm his and he's mine. Not everything in the NT, or even in the OT, can or must be read with a heavy-handed "NOW, DON'T ABSTRACT THIS INDIVIDUALISTIC-SOUNDING COMMENT ABOUT ME AND JESUS FROM THIS INDIVIDUAL'S COMMUNAL IDENTITY" hermeneutical grid. Can't we just say that we affirm both the one AND the many, and that both are absolutely vital. If you don't pray on your own, you probably aren't a Christian. Now, this sounds harsh---I know. This doesn't mean that I don't think this business about "personal spiritual growth plans" isn't ludicrous. I'm just saying that what I hate about it is the business metaphor that undergirds the whole discussion among the Willow gurus. I don't hate---and will absolutely never talk negatively---about folks who are more mature in Christ taking less mature folks under their wings and bringing particular aspects of the glorious gospel message to bear on their particular circumstances. And I also don't think there's anything wrong with gaining fresh insight from God's word that helps us live individually and communally in a more genuinely human way. Other than those things, great points! You know, I have to say that I’m pretty tired of hearing about this GREAT either/or of communal/individual salvation, spiritual journey, conversion, relationship with God, union with Christ, etc.

I’m all into the speech about community. But I’m alone a lot of the time. Lots of my day is spent in my own little world. And even when people are working around lots of other people, in our late capitalist society, they may be even more alone in such settings than I am when I’m holed up in my study all day.

It’s actually quite comforting to me to know that Jesus loves ME. Sure he loves his bride, and I’m not his bride, exactly. But I’m his and he’s mine.

Not everything in the NT, or even in the OT, can or must be read with a heavy-handed “NOW, DON’T ABSTRACT THIS INDIVIDUALISTIC-SOUNDING COMMENT ABOUT ME AND JESUS FROM THIS INDIVIDUAL’S COMMUNAL IDENTITY” hermeneutical grid. Can’t we just say that we affirm both the one AND the many, and that both are absolutely vital. If you don’t pray on your own, you probably aren’t a Christian.

Now, this sounds harsh—I know. This doesn’t mean that I don’t think this business about “personal spiritual growth plans” isn’t ludicrous. I’m just saying that what I hate about it is the business metaphor that undergirds the whole discussion among the Willow gurus. I don’t hate—and will absolutely never talk negatively—about folks who are more mature in Christ taking less mature folks under their wings and bringing particular aspects of the glorious gospel message to bear on their particular circumstances. And I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with gaining fresh insight from God’s word that helps us live individually and communally in a more genuinely human way.

Other than those things, great points!

]]> By: Kristy http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3992 Kristy Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:53:35 +0000 http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/15/more-on-the-journey-metaphor/#comment-3992 I've been reading your thoughts on the journey, and I know where you're coming from, having grown up in similar types of churches to those you've described. I think the journey mindset can cause people to be self-centered, because you are simply focused on your own growth and change and new insights and all that jazz. We've been attending a Presbyterian church for several months now, and the huge difference I've noticed between our new church and all the ones I attended growing up is the focus on families - the family unit and how it relates to God's plan for his people and for the spread of his gospel. They put a LOT of emphasis on this - sometimes too much, in my mind - but it's been really good for me to hear. It's given me a new respect and appreciation for the biblical roles of husbands, wives, parents, children. They also emphasize how the family fits in with the church as a whole. I've noticed that the pastor always refers to my husband when we're around. He speaks with me, but his focus is always on Davy when he's introducing us, talking to us, etc. I have to admit, it kind of bothers me, because I'm not used to it. And I say this to my shame - I know my attitude isn't godly. It makes sense for him to address the head of our family when he's speaking to or about our family. Hm, slight tangent there. I wonder if some of the "life as a journey" mindset stemmed from "Pilgrim's Progress"? Obviously that's been a very influential book, and its basic premise is the spiritual journey of an individual. Anyway, good thoughts. Kristy I’ve been reading your thoughts on the journey, and I know where you’re coming from, having grown up in similar types of churches to those you’ve described. I think the journey mindset can cause people to be self-centered, because you are simply focused on your own growth and change and new insights and all that jazz.

We’ve been attending a Presbyterian church for several months now, and the huge difference I’ve noticed between our new church and all the ones I attended growing up is the focus on families - the family unit and how it relates to God’s plan for his people and for the spread of his gospel. They put a LOT of emphasis on this - sometimes too much, in my mind - but it’s been really good for me to hear. It’s given me a new respect and appreciation for the biblical roles of husbands, wives, parents, children. They also emphasize how the family fits in with the church as a whole. I’ve noticed that the pastor always refers to my husband when we’re around. He speaks with me, but his focus is always on Davy when he’s introducing us, talking to us, etc. I have to admit, it kind of bothers me, because I’m not used to it. And I say this to my shame - I know my attitude isn’t godly. It makes sense for him to address the head of our family when he’s speaking to or about our family.

Hm, slight tangent there.

I wonder if some of the “life as a journey” mindset stemmed from “Pilgrim’s Progress”? Obviously that’s been a very influential book, and its basic premise is the spiritual journey of an individual.

Anyway, good thoughts.

Kristy

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