I am caught in the middle…having been in WC for worship and various debates (i.e. “evolutionism” vs “creationism”) just over a decade ago (so it’s been awhile)…I know I’m not a fan of WC or other mega churchesque types.

It’s not a denomination thing though for me…meaning it’s not because I’m Lutheran and they are not…it’s bigger than that. Basically, as a 30-year-old Christian, I’m just plain sick and tired of the production, the marketing…feeling like I’m being sold something. I get that in the secular world enough, when it creeps into my faith life…I recoil.

On the flip side, I hesitate with the other side of traditionalism a bit as well…especially when it hints of a legalistic tone….so you see, I’m caught in a very unhappy middle.

Thanks for the post….of to read it with my husband.

I don’t think WC has any intention of nixing the front end, program-driven, full-throttle pizazz that they would put under the “evangelism” category. I think their REVEAL initiative is specifically under the “discipleship” category. They’re wanting to round out their effectiveness—to not pass less-recent converts on to more traditional and deep churches.

I’m reading Marsden’s biography of J. Edwards. It’s interesting how Edwards was caught between two paradigms in his own day–the first half of the 18th Century. There was the parish-oriented, local-with-a-capital-L congregational model, which even enjoyed its revivals. These revivals even spread “organically” from town to town w/o the use of itinerant (i.e., celebrity) preachers. In effect, each town had its own patriarch-minister-figurehead-quasi-celebrity. And then the Whitefields and Tennents and Wesleys came rolling through and changed the way the colonies experienced spirituality.

One of the lessons from this episode is that itinerant-preacher revival(ism) was connected with the rise of democracy and the departure of traditional aristocracy, and with the replacement of the vestiges of medieval feudalism by a growing capitalistic economic sensibility, all of which contributed to the sort of culture that would seriously ponder the idea of independence and revolution in the second half of the century.

I sometimes fear that the demon is in too deep. We just ARE consumers, capitalists, and democrats. Even in the tradition I find myself in, which ostensibly decries consumer-driven churchianity, there is a “brand-loyalty” ethos that runs through our circles. I’m sure Rob can testify to this about his tradition, too. But it’s probably worse in Reformed circles b/c the ethnic factor is not as strong as in Lutheran circles. It’s our “brand” of theologizing, of worship, of raising kids, of relating to secular culture. I feel so often that Reformed folks are constantly *selling* a Reformed brand to one another and to themselves—I, for one, certainly have, am, and will continue to.

That’s all for now. Thoughts?

It’s so good to hear from you. It’s always good to hear your take on things–I miss our breakfast discussions of these sorts of things.

You wrote:

However, having been to willow and now working at a church that would fall under this catagory, it is very hard for me to completly dismiss it after seeing how many people have become sincere followers of Christ as a result. And after seeing the Kingdom of God advance forcefully in the lives of the poeple in my community.

As I mentioned above, I am certain that the Holy Spirit will grab hold of people through any means he chooses. Many have come to faith in the context of Willow’s programs, and I’m sure many would say that their lives have been changed because of something Willow has done.

But just because Willow’s way sometimes works doesn’t mean that it is best. Although the consumer-driven church model works for getting people in the door, it struggles to bring people to maturity (Willow has commented on this themselves through their REVEAL movement, which I’ve posted on further <a href=”http://loveandblunder.com/2007/11/12/new-name-same-old-song/”here). My contention is that it is the consumer-driven philosophy that undergirds the Willow Creek model which prevents people from putting down the deep roots Christ calls us to.

Further, Willow’s influence–particularly among evangelical church leadership–is almost unrivaled. It’s worth paying attention to Willow’s methods because they are setting the agenda for a huge slice of American church life. Do churches that adopt their model really think through its repercussions? And isn’t the entire idea of selling a successful ministry philosophy an extension of the passive consumerism that’s been shown to be so detrimental to communal life (see Albert Borgmann’s book Power Failure or Neil Postman’s Amusing Ourselves to Death for more)?

A few questions roll around in my head. These are not directed at you particularly, Derrak, but for each of us to mull over. I would like to hear anyone’s thoughts:
* It seems the consumer-driven model is an innovation in church methodology that’s arisen in the last 50 years or so (please correct me if you have evidence otherwise). Any innovator is burdened with the task of showing their work as a necessary change from earlier models. What case can Willow Creek make that their model actually leads to healthier churches and better-rooted Christians? Numbers alone are not a sufficient answer. And, as mentioned above, in the Reveal initiative, it seems they’ve confessed that their model doesn’t work…?
* Were church-growth models built in response to problems within the church, or changes within the culture? What shift sparked the change?

I’d write more (I have a much longer list of questions to put down), but I have to get ready for the wedding of a good friend. I’m interested to hear what all of you have to say.

I guess a little accommodation of the culture isn’t so bad, like Paul in Rome doing like the Romans. But I agree with you that Willow Creek, et al, seem to be going way too far. I don’t have good guage of how far is too far yet. Do you?

Been a long time. I hope this finds you and your family doing well. I have enjoyed catching up on your fam through the blog, and appreciate your thoughtful and sincere posts concerning the church and the kingdom of God.

I have always enjoyed our dialogues, and really miss them, since moving from Ohio to Michigan. As I am typing this, I realize that you once asked me to comment on the church through my web site and never did. Sorry about that.

Concerning your post above, I could not agree with you more when it comes to Willow Creek selling its product to other churches. I think it is really crazy that a church would make money off of something like that. (Assuming that they are making moeny off of it) I say just give it away.

Concerning your comments on consumerism, I agree with your analysys of our culture and the churches use of entertainement. However, having been to willow and now working at a church that would fall under this catagory, it is very hard for me to completly dismiss it after seeing how many people have become sincere followers of Christ as a result. And after seeing the Kingdom of God advance forcefully in the lives of the poeple in my community.

I think you might really enjoy a book I am reading called “the Forgotten Ways” by Alan Hersch. His words on thes issues I have found to be the most challening and thought through.

I guess when it comes down to it, I am not sold out to this ministry strategy at all, but I beleive God is using this ministry strategy to advance his kingdom. It is hard for me to dismiss it completely becasue of that.

At any rate. Hope you are doing well.

Derrak